Discussion:
USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
(too old to reply)
Peter Tomlinson
2004-09-08 06:33:21 UTC
Permalink
In the US they have a Presidential Directive:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040827-8.html

but in the UK...

I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised version
of the spec for the military CAC. As reported before, it includes space
for the material facts from the card holder's personnel file.

Peter

"Homeland Security Presidential Directive/Hspd-12

Subject: Policy for a Common Identification Standard for Federal
Employees and Contractors

(1) Wide variations in the quality and security of forms of
identification used to gain access to secure Federal and other
facilities where there is potential for terrorist attacks need to be
eliminated. Therefore, it is the policy of the United States to enhance
security, increase Government efficiency, reduce identity fraud, and
protect personal privacy by establishing a mandatory, Government-wide
standard for secure and reliable forms of identification issued by the
Federal Government to its employees and contractors (including
contractor employees).

(2) To implement the policy set forth in paragraph (1), the Secretary
of Commerce shall promulgate in accordance with applicable law a Federal
standard for secure and reliable forms of identification (the
"Standard") not later than 6 months after the date of this directive in
consultation with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the
Attorney General, the Secretary of Homeland Security, the Director of
the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and the Director of the
Office of Science and Technology Policy. The Secretary of Commerce shall
periodically review the Standard and update the Standard as appropriate
in consultation with the affected agencies.

(3) "Secure and reliable forms of identification" for purposes of this
directive means identification that (a) is issued based on sound
criteria for verifying an individual employee's identity; (b) is
strongly resistant to identity fraud, tampering, counterfeiting, and
terrorist exploitation; (c) can be rapidly authenticated electronically;
and (d) is issued only by providers whose reliability has been
established by an official accreditation process. The Standard will
include graduated criteria, from least secure to most secure, to ensure
flexibility in selecting the appropriate level of security for each
application.

(4) Not later than 4 months following promulgation of the Standard,
the heads of executive departments and agencies shall have a program in
place to ensure that identification issued by their departments and
agencies to Federal employees and contractors meets the Standard." ...

<snip>
and

" (6) This directive shall be implemented in a manner consistent with
the Constitution and applicable laws, including the Privacy Act (5
U.S.C. 552a) and other statutes protecting the rights of Americans."
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 07:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Tomlinson
I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised
version of the spec for the military CAC
"By March 2004, five years since the origin of the project, 4.5
million CACs will have been issued to DoD employees, military
personal, and civilian contractors. A number of large military
facilities are successfully using the CAC in conjunction with
access control systems developed by AMAG Technology specifically
for federal applications."

With apparently a big deployment in the Pentagon; developed and
manufactured by Group 4 in Tewkesbury, UK.
--
Roland Perry
Peter Tomlinson
2004-09-08 07:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Activcard is another company (originally French, I believe, but now
firmly international) heavily involved in the CAC, particularly in the
systems for issuing cards and managing the card population. And I keep
seeing quotes from press releases issued by numerous companies saying
they have won a slice of the action.

Because the CAC was developed in conjunction with mutiple suppliers,
there is interchangeability of components and systems. Also there is a
guaranteed market. The same should happen with the federal card. (Not
that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)

Peter
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Peter Tomlinson
I'm sure this will use the GSC-IS spec, which is the generalised
version of the spec for the military CAC
"By March 2004, five years since the origin of the project, 4.5
million CACs will have been issued to DoD employees, military
personal, and civilian contractors. A number of large military
facilities are successfully using the CAC in conjunction with
access control systems developed by AMAG Technology specifically
for federal applications."
With apparently a big deployment in the Pentagon; developed and
manufactured by Group 4 in Tewkesbury, UK.
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 08:47:04 UTC
Permalink
(Not that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
But it's far from the green field that is often suggested (and is to
some extent implied by the Home Office trial).
--
Roland Perry
Peter Tomlinson
2004-09-08 09:11:05 UTC
Permalink
There are several European smart ID card deployments (some just
voluntary add-ons to existing methods), both inside and outside the EU,
all different in their technology and attitude to the scope and type of
data stored on the cards. Certainly my current experience of talking to
UK public sector people in or knowing about the central spending depts
and agencies is that, in the big monolithic projects, their eyes are
firmly on the grounds of their own projects. The smaller projects and
the distributed projects are the ones to watch.

eGU (successor to OeE) has let a small contract to collect info about
all public sector e-Gov work.

Peter
Post by Roland Perry
(Not that CAC deployment has been without interoperability problems or
without difficulty handling the growing hot-list of lost and blocked cards.)
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
But it's far from the green field that is often suggested (and is to
some extent implied by the Home Office trial).
Ian Johnson
2004-09-08 09:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
Different sorts of bugs I would think. Issuing people cards *they want*
has a totally different threat model to ID cards. Firstly people
aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them, secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.

Regards,

Ian
--
Ian Johnson Tel : +44 117 344 3167
Faculty of CEMS, UWE Bristol Email: irj-***@public.gmane.org
Frenchay Campus, Bristol. BS16 1QY. UK.
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 09:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Johnson
Post by Roland Perry
I find it encouraging when we discover these large roll-out programmes,
as they will serve to debug the technology *ahead* of a mass deployment
of UK ID cards. Some will be hoping that bugs are insuperable, I'm sure.
Different sorts of bugs I would think. Issuing people cards *they want*
has a totally different threat model to ID cards.
Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.
Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,
See above.
Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.
Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?
--
Roland Perry
Ian Johnson
2004-09-08 10:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.
It's very rare I need either. I tend to only need my passport in
August,
and I can't remember the last time I needed my driving licence.
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,
See above.
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.
Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?
The motivation and numbers are probably very different. Career
criminals
for example are almost certainly more numerous and tend to want to
continue
to live.

Regards,

Ian
--
Ian Johnson Tel : +44 117 344 3167
Faculty of CEMS, UWE Bristol Email: irj-***@public.gmane.org
Frenchay Campus, Bristol. BS16 1QY. UK.
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 15:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Johnson
Post by Roland Perry
Although the UK ID cards will be piggy-backed on people who *want* a
driving licence or a passport.
It's very rare I need either. I tend to only need my passport in
August, and I can't remember the last time I needed my driving licence.
What I forgot to add was that this would mop up perhaps 80% of the
population. The other 20% will at least be joining a scheme that's
running smoothly by then.
Post by Ian Johnson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
Firstly people aren't going to be deliberately losing or damaging them,
See above.
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?
We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.
Post by Ian Johnson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
secondly the
incentive to criminals to fake a national ID card would be very high.
Whereas terrorists have no incentive to forge a card to get into a US
military (and now federal) site?
The motivation and numbers are probably very different. Career
criminals for example are almost certainly more numerous and tend to
want to continue to live.
Yes, I agree that there will be an element of arms race in this. There
always is.
--
Roland Perry
Ian Johnson
2004-09-08 15:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?
We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.
I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street
(which I feel they should) mine will need replacing *at least* daily,
I'm very careless you see :)

Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks. I
turn
up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning - what
happens
if this is the case for say, half the passengers?

My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number
who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.

Ian
--
Ian Johnson Tel : +44 117 344 3167
Faculty of CEMS, UWE Bristol Email: irj-***@public.gmane.org
Frenchay Campus, Bristol. BS16 1QY. UK.
Owen Lewis
2004-09-08 17:15:21 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 16:56
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks. I
turn
up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning - what
happens
if this is the case for say, half the passengers?
Then you - or half the passengers will miss your flight. This will
inconvenience you/them but not the other passengers nor the airline.
My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number
who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.
Nah. You'll have to come up with something better.

BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as we all know
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.

Owen
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 18:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Owen Lewis
BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as we all know
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.
Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).
--
Roland Perry
Owen Lewis
2004-09-08 19:25:07 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 19:32
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
Post by Owen Lewis
BTW, you make the argument well for ensuring that replacements are issued
only at full cost. Personally, I can't see any reasonable option to that
but, if only for the presentational advantages, I think that the initial
card issue really should be made 'free of charge'. Of course as
we all know
Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.
Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).
So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central thread in that
collection?

Owen
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 20:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Owen Lewis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial issue of all
cards would be a smart move methinks.
Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address changes are
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).
So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central thread in that
collection?
You suggested a free "initial issue", but this seems unlikely given the
current initial issue costs of passport and driving licence, and the
passport agency is run as a cost centre (with costs predicted to
increase as biometrics are introduced).

Certain kinds of replacement are currently free (for example the lost
season ticket or the UK-DL change of address) and others seem to have an
element of "fine" about them (losing your counterpart or card licence
are both as bad as one another at £19 - seems a bit steep for a piece of
A4). Replacing a lost UK passport seems to cost as much as a new one,
and requires a new application as well as the form 'fessing up to the
loss.

Over the water in the USA, a change of DL address is free once every 4
years, and more frequent moves or lost licences cost $15. A lost or
stolen USA Green Card is a stunning $185, and after naturalisation,
don't lose your certificate because that's $210 to replace.

So, on balance, I think that a replacement for a lost UK-ID might well
cost in the region of £20, with initial issue predicted to be somewhat
higher than current passport or DL fees.
--
Roland Perry
Owen Lewis
2004-09-08 21:08:09 UTC
Permalink
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 08 September 2004 21:08
Subject: Re: USA ID card for federal employees and contractors
Post by Owen Lewis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Owen Lewis
nothing in life is free but central funding of the initial
issue of all
Post by Owen Lewis
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Owen Lewis
cards would be a smart move methinks.
Once again, let's look at historical precedent rather than merely
speculating. Look at things like the cost of replacing an existing card
driving licence in various jurisdictions (in the UK, address
changes are
Post by Owen Lewis
Post by Roland Perry
free, but a lost card is £19). Or replacing a railway season ticket
(free, but three strikes and you are out).
So what point is it you wish to make? Is there some central
thread in that
Post by Owen Lewis
collection?
You suggested a free "initial issue", but this seems unlikely given the
current initial issue costs of passport and driving licence, and the
passport agency is run as a cost centre (with costs predicted to
increase as biometrics are introduced).
The point is that if issue is to be mandatory then it'd sugar the pill for
some if the issue was 'free'. Forty quid to someone whose only income is
sixty-five a week is a near back-breaking sum to be told you *have* to
spend. OTOH for those on a daily fee rate of a thousand it's no more than
another round of drinks. Zo eeesily zey forget, nie?

Of course it'd not be free but that's beside the point. No one (normally)
insists that you buy a passport of a driving licence and therefore your
comparison is not good. N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either
or both of passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.


Owen
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 21:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Owen Lewis
The point is that if issue is to be mandatory then it'd sugar the pill for
some if the issue was 'free'.
Yes, I understand that, but unless the issuing agencies are completely
re-financed (so ask Gordon Brown for money) it won't happen.
Post by Owen Lewis
No one (normally)
insists that you buy a passport of a driving licence and therefore your
comparison is not good. N.B for those who *are* required to acquire either
or both of passport and driving licence, issue *is* free in my experience.
I've been required to get or keep (ie re-new when required) both by
various employers. There's never been any suggestion that I could recoup
the cost.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2004-09-08 18:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Johnson
Post by Roland Perry
Post by Ian Johnson
What happens will depend on the system that is imposed, what happens if
an electronic passport is non-functioning? how quickly and at what cost
can they be replaced?
We've done the replacement thing to death already. Should be a trip to
the nearest High Street and a thumbprint.
I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street (which I feel they should) mine will need replacing *at least*
daily, I'm very careless you see :)
I think you'll get very tired of doing that.
Post by Ian Johnson
Lets say my passport had undergone several very severe thermal shocks.
I turn up to board a flight with it, but the chip is non functioning -
what happens if this is the case for say, half the passengers?
The existing card rollouts that keep cropping up are the places to
discover what causes the hardware to fail. The 5 million USA DoD
workers, for example. How often a passenger gets denied boarding will no
doubt be a fundamental parameter for a combined passport/ID card; ask
the places that are deploying them, including several ones that are
electronic.
Post by Ian Johnson
My real point was supportive and cooperative users versus a significant
number who if offered a spanner will throw it in the works.
You'd find yourself denied the opportunity to do various things. Whether
that matters to you is another matter.
--
Roland Perry
Ian G Batten
2004-09-09 07:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Johnson
I think you missed my point. if HMG offers free replacement in the high
street
Aside from anything else, with the decline in the number of crown post
offices and a desire by government to fund other programmes by slimming
down the civil service, which arm of government has a branch in every
high street and can cope with this sort of work? And Blunkett is
building a poll tax on a small card anyway, because for many people
(rural, highlands and islands, sink estates) even the ``nearest'' high
street is a difficult journey logistically and/or financially. I want
to watch Blunkett, man of the people, telling a house bound pensioner in
a small highland village that unless she gets herself to Inverness her
pension will be cut off. But then, what's the interests of individuals
as compared to the grandeur of the Home Office?

ian
Roland Perry
2004-09-09 07:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian G Batten
Aside from anything else, with the decline in the number of crown post
offices and a desire by government to fund other programmes by slimming
down the civil service, which arm of government has a branch in every
high street and can cope with this sort of work? And Blunkett is
building a poll tax on a small card anyway, because for many people
(rural, highlands and islands, sink estates) even the ``nearest'' high
street is a difficult journey logistically and/or financially. I want
to watch Blunkett, man of the people, telling a house bound pensioner in
a small highland village that unless she gets herself to Inverness her
pension will be cut off. But then, what's the interests of individuals
as compared to the grandeur of the Home Office?
These are all interesting practical issues. I look at what's happened
elsewhere (stop me if you've heard that line before). The State of
Georgia has regions that are probably sparser populated than the
highlands, and is about the size of England (200 miles E/W, 300 miles
N/S) but there's a requirement to issue drivers licenses. They've
achieved that by having over a hundred locations where they've installed
the facilities they need. The one I went to was like a sub-postoffice
tacked onto the side of a highway patrol depot.

By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones. Perhaps not all of
them would be manned five days a week in outlying areas, rather like the
libraries! But people cope. And iirc there were proposed age limits, and
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.
--
Roland Perry
David Hansen
2004-09-09 08:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Perry
By analogy the UK-ID cards could be issued (say) anywhere there is a
municipal library, including the travelling ones.
Libraries are being closed down too, though not at the same rate as
post offices (at least at the moment).
Post by Roland Perry
no politician is going to make a martyr of the sort of case you
describe.
These cases usually arise because officials are only obeying orders. If
they make it into the mass media party politicians complain that their
orders have been misinterpreted.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will *always* explain why I revoke a key, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
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